Posts by Sea Breeze

168

Moral responsibility.

by nicolaou in

no subtlety here, it's going to be obvious where i'm going with this.

please consider the following scenario.. you're seated on a railway platform bench waiting for your train.

a high speed intercity is about to hurtle through without stopping when you see a small child running to the platforms edge!

Sea Breeze

The only way to avoid this (sinning) would be to have our free will stripped away, to become someone -or something- that we are not.

@Tonus

If, out of our own free-will we ask God to give us the new nature he promises, one that cannot sin; how is that violating our God-given free will? Would not that be free wills' ultimate expression?

So, I will either spend eternity incapable of independent thought/action, or I will spend eternity suffering because I invariably broke a rule or crossed a line.

The removal of the sin nature doesn't make sin impossible or render us incapable of independent thought or action. It does however make us adoptable by God, sharers of his nature & heirs of everything he owns - capable of receiving his pure love and returning it without fear or hesitation of any kind.

This is the primary purpose of man - to love God; it is why we are here. It is why there is anything at all. The second purpose is to love our neighbor as ourself.

You mean a moral code that everyone, everywhere will agree with? Assuming such a thing is possible, you get there by trial and error. You experience things, you learn, you adjust.

So, you think that the origin of morality is a convention? I appreciate you presenting possibilities. It's a very important topic.

A convention is something that we all agree to do... like driving on the right side of the road. If we all agree - it works. But we are not talking about getting morality to work. We all know that it works. How we got it is the question. If morality is a simple artifact of convention, then drivers in Britian who drive on the left side of the road are just as correct as those who drive on the right side of the road. This does not account for the existence of universal morality.

I once asked DJW on this forumn if I put a gun to his head and threatened to pull the trigger, would there be anything objectively wrong with that? He could not bring himself to admit that it would be universally morally wrong for me to shoot him in the head.

we now have the ability to reason. And that means we can make determinations

But this is at the heart of Christian criticism of atheism. We know atheists have the ability to reason, be moral, employ logic etc. The problem is that the atheist cannot account for it with his stated worldview. It violates his own presuppositions of chaos, happenstance, copying mistakes and chemical accidents. If the atheist really believed these conditions are what created him, to be consistent he would not be able to "know" anything at all.

168

Moral responsibility.

by nicolaou in

no subtlety here, it's going to be obvious where i'm going with this.

please consider the following scenario.. you're seated on a railway platform bench waiting for your train.

a high speed intercity is about to hurtle through without stopping when you see a small child running to the platforms edge!

Sea Breeze

@Cofty on where he gets his morality:

From approving those things that promote the well being of conscious creatures.

@ Nicholau :

If my actions cause harm to other people, creatures or the planet they are 'wrong'. If they benefit others they are 'good'.

Nicholau, how do you determine "good" in a chance universe? Totally abritrary standard.

Cofty: How do you know what brings happiness to other creatures? Isn't happiness just a chemical reaction in the brain? Since my chemical reactions are different than your chemical reactions, what gives you the right to impose your chemical reactions over my chemical reactions?

Furthermore, why should I pursue one chemical reaction over another .... like pain for example? The marquis de sade enjoyed toturing women. What if the pleasure he derived was greater than the pain he caused? Wouldn't the "good" outweigh the bad?

The atheist worldview is totally arbitrary and inconsistent in every possible way, it doesn't work even a little bit. It is the most inconsistent of worldviews.

But, Cofty; more to your point - In your worldview, why should I be concerned with the well-being of humans in Austrailia? If they are just rearranged pond-scum, why should I be concerned about their happiness?

This makes sense in a Christian worldview where God says to do unto others as you would have them do unto you. But, this is the polar opposite of the "tooth and claw" model that atheists claim was the mechanism that produced us. Again, this is irational, inconsistent and a "just so story" designed to try and conceal the presuppositional theft (do unto others) from the Christian worldview needed in order to attack it.

I don't think that either of you have really thought out your atheism before jumping it to it.

People who joined the WT, proceeded with the same recklessness.

Any other ideas on where atheists get their morality?

168

Moral responsibility.

by nicolaou in

no subtlety here, it's going to be obvious where i'm going with this.

please consider the following scenario.. you're seated on a railway platform bench waiting for your train.

a high speed intercity is about to hurtle through without stopping when you see a small child running to the platforms edge!

Sea Breeze

If we can reason out why actions are moral or immoral, no god is necessary.

@Tonus - You are borrowing from the Christian worldview here to be able to attack it. You are pre-supposing that you know what correct reasoning is. How do you arrive at universal correct reasoning in a chance universe? What makes your reasoning "right" and others "wrong".

Why would animals want to reason anyway? Why wouldn't laws or reasoning be different in different places. It's all blind chance, chemical reactions and copying mistakes, right?

You are standing on Christian ground when you appeal to reason. "God cannot deny himself". You should either get saved or go get your own reason. Stop trespassing.

168

Moral responsibility.

by nicolaou in

no subtlety here, it's going to be obvious where i'm going with this.

please consider the following scenario.. you're seated on a railway platform bench waiting for your train.

a high speed intercity is about to hurtle through without stopping when you see a small child running to the platforms edge!

Sea Breeze

Morality is a product of evolution just like everything else. In parts it's messy, fluid and open to debate but at the core is something that all primates have learned over millions of years.

@ Nicholau,

First of all there is no proof of evolution whatsoever. There are lots of made up "just so stories" that try to prop it up, but it is positioned on just sand that won't support it's claims. Using very liberal parameters, world renowwed geneticists proclaim that it would take far longer that the supposed age of the universe to get only one 8 letter genetic word into a population of say 10,000 members of that species from DNA copying mistakes. This is the real science atheists suppress.

It you are just a chemical accident and a DNA copying mistake (nevermind where this multi-language and multi-coded alphabet comes from) why on earth would anyone (including yourself) trust anything that you say?

The atheist view doesn't make sense: Why would there be a standard of reasoning in a chance universe? Why would we all have the same basic morals all over the globe if we all evolved differently and separately?

This makes sense from a Christian worldview because our shared standards of logic, reasoning, and morality are reflections of God himself, since we are made in his image. It is consistent.

It is inconsistent to assume that after millions of years of unguided "might makes right" survival of the fittist, that everything suddenly changed. Aren't we supposed to be just animals. Animals don't care about what happens to other animals.

Why don't we put monkeys on trial for killing their own and sometimes eating them? Animals do what animals do. Morality, justice, grace, substitutionary atonement make no sense in an atheist worldview. Your world view blows itself up on its own claims. No bible needed here.

Nicholau, This is a simple but honest question that I would like to hear your response to:

How do you determine right from wrong?

168

Moral responsibility.

by nicolaou in

no subtlety here, it's going to be obvious where i'm going with this.

please consider the following scenario.. you're seated on a railway platform bench waiting for your train.

a high speed intercity is about to hurtle through without stopping when you see a small child running to the platforms edge!

Sea Breeze

Even if I was loyal and obedient and dedicated to god and his will, I am still in this position.

@ Tonus - I question your assumption here. Can you be always be loyal? Can you always be obedient? No, you can't. That is why God declares at the very beginning of the "age of grace" that "by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified". How many sins did Jesus die for? Answwer: All of them - past, present, and future.

The Christian life isn't about doing more. Quite the contrary; it is about abandoning the "will worship" behind your previous works and allowing your new spirit that you got at Salvation (at the emptying) to take over. It feels a little wobbly at first, but it is really you who is doing it. The new spirit is your down-payment on the full inheritance to come when your soul (mind) and body are glorified in perfection. In other words, It is "you", but you know that it is not from "you.

Since Calvary, humans have had a very dramatic display in how to permanently relate to God - "in spirit and in truth". No more obsessing over wondering if you did some law or religious requirement just right, or right enough.

When a person abandons the rights to himself and 'dies" to himself for Christ, he immediaetly becomes an adopted member of God's family, a legal heir to everything that God owns. It is a completely different way of relating to God.... a relation as with a family member, a kinsman redeemer, a father or a mother.

Ever see the instict of a mother kick in when protecting their young? It is something to behold, a force of nature way bigger than most of the indifference we experience in life. Yet, this is a miniscule picture of the loyalty that God has for his own:

"Can a woman forget her sucking child, that she should not have compassion on the son of her womb? yea, they may forget, yet will I not forget thee"

The safest place in the universe is as a child of god, a member of his family.

168

Moral responsibility.

by nicolaou in

no subtlety here, it's going to be obvious where i'm going with this.

please consider the following scenario.. you're seated on a railway platform bench waiting for your train.

a high speed intercity is about to hurtle through without stopping when you see a small child running to the platforms edge!

Sea Breeze

Christians (and Muslims etc) regularly denounce atheists as having no moral code.

@ Nicholau,

Christians acknowlege that all of us muslims, atheists, buddists etc. have morality. We know it is wrong to steal, kill, lie etc.

Atheists just can't come up with a plausible explanation of how they got it. How do you get morality out of unguided explosions, copying mistakes and chemical accidents?

Like I've said many times, what difference should it make to a chemical mistake what another chemical mistake does or does not do?

But it does matter, even to atheists. This shows that atheists do not really believe their own storyline. People act more or less consistently outwardly in a manner consistent with their internal reality.

Their God-given morality gives them away, so that they are "without excuse".

168

Moral responsibility.

by nicolaou in

no subtlety here, it's going to be obvious where i'm going with this.

please consider the following scenario.. you're seated on a railway platform bench waiting for your train.

a high speed intercity is about to hurtle through without stopping when you see a small child running to the platforms edge!

Sea Breeze

@ SBF Universal Salvation was not taught by the apostles.

Jesus’ own words confirm that the time spent in heaven for the redeemed will last as long as that of the unredeemed in hell. Matthew 25:46 says, “Then they [the unsaved] will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” According to this verse, the punishment of the unsaved is just as eternal as the life of the righteous. Some believe that those in hell will eventually cease to exist, but the Lord Himself confirms that it will last forever. Matthew 25:41 and Mark 9:44 describe hell as “eternal fire” and “unquenchable fire.”

How does one avoid this unquenchable fire? Many people believe that all roads—all religions and beliefs—lead to heaven, or they consider that God is so full of love and mercy that He will allow all people into heaven. God is certainly full of love and mercy; it was these qualities that led Him to send His Son, Jesus Christ, to earth to die on the cross for us. Jesus Christ is the exclusive door that leads to an eternity in heaven. Acts 4:12 says, “Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.” “There is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus” (1 Timothy 2:5). In John 14:6, Jesus says, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” John 3:16, “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.” If we choose to reject God’s Son, we do not meet the requirements for salvation (John 3:16, 18, 36).

With verses such as these, it becomes clear that universalism and universal salvation are unbiblical beliefs. Universalism directly contradicts what Scripture teaches. While many people accuse Christians of being intolerant and “exclusive,” it is important to remember that these are the words of Christ Himself.

Christians did not develop these ideas on their own; Christians are simply stating what the Lord has already said. People choose to reject the message because they do not want to face up to their sin and admit that they need the Lord to save them. To say that those who reject God’s provision of salvation through His Son will be saved is to belittle the holiness and justice of God and negate the need of Jesus’ sacrifice on our behalf.

168

Moral responsibility.

by nicolaou in

no subtlety here, it's going to be obvious where i'm going with this.

please consider the following scenario.. you're seated on a railway platform bench waiting for your train.

a high speed intercity is about to hurtle through without stopping when you see a small child running to the platforms edge!

Sea Breeze

The question was not whether he has the obligation to us, but rather to himself and his own morality.

God is perfectly consistent with his own character and morality. The wages of sin is death, but the gift God gives is everlasting life.

Both the wages and the gift are available.

Dehumanising death cult.

@Cofty - I agree. Death is the only solution. Our (sinful) humanity can't be fixed. Christianity is not a will-power fueled self-help program like many modern churches and the WT pretend it to be. You my man have captured its essence, though not a cult.

That's why rivers of blood flowed from the temple in JERUSALEM , to illustrate that only death can atone for our sin. After 1500 years, the Jews still didn't get it.

Sinful humanity can't be fixed, it must die. Jesus repeatedly made this clear:

"He that is not willing to lose all cannot be my disciple."

"He that loses his life for my sake will find it."

Baptism is a symbol of death - "buried with him in baptism" and raised to new life.

"You must be born again"

In this life, if we seek to save our life we will lose it, if we seek to lose our life in Jesus we will find it.

This is one of the many things that makes Christianity so unique. All other religions and ideologies are spelled "do". Only Christianity is spelled "d-o-n-e".

It is totally finished. All a person has to do no is die to himself..... easier said than done.

14

Observation

by pontoon in

haven't been to a meeting in 13 years.

family that lives 1300 miles away doesn't know.

just visited them and here is what i observed.

Sea Breeze

Yes, times and the JW members have changed.

My 90 year old Dad is pointing out that there are still a few people on earth that were born in or before 1914. He based his whole life and those of his family on this hope instead of Jesus. Now that the figurative anti-typical overlapping generation doctrine has replaced the literal 1914 generation, he seems stuck. He doesn't get that his most cherished hope has been unceremoniously flushed down the toilet by the WT.

I think he sees the change as a weakness of faith. But, he is not going to be weak like others... even the GB. In his mind, even if only one person is alive on earth in 2034 (120 years old), then the prophecy is true. He believes that he will not lose faith.... even though the GB has. So sad.

I can see the terror in his eys when I remind him that he is likely going to die before Jesus returns & he needs to make peace with God, but only for a second. Then he shakes it off and asks if I want to see the latest WT video.

168

Moral responsibility.

by nicolaou in

no subtlety here, it's going to be obvious where i'm going with this.

please consider the following scenario.. you're seated on a railway platform bench waiting for your train.

a high speed intercity is about to hurtle through without stopping when you see a small child running to the platforms edge!

Sea Breeze

He can do things that we would roundly and utterly condemn a human for, and it would be a hallmark of justice.

@TonusOH,

Most people have lied, cheated, stolen, murdered babies, hated their neighbor, etc. In other words... broken every single one of the ten commandments. Justice REQUIRES we receive the same treatment in return..... an eye for an eye.

Everyone WILL eventually do or condone these things even though they TRY to avoid doing them.

Because of this, we are under a sentence of death. We are not God's children. He has absolutly zero obligation to any of us for anything good at all. Your next breath is a kindness from the Lord.

This moral reality is extremely unsettling and shocking to the core for an unsaved person..... which is why we run from God like Adam and Even did and mentally suppress many realities concerning morality and justice. This is a maladaptive survival mechanism. A mechanism, that ironically ensures that we forever perish.

The depravity of man is so total that it takes a divine act of the Holy Spirit himself in order to wake us up enough to even "convict us of sin". Without that, many people choose to waste their short life shaking their fist at God in a supreme display of ignorace and self-deception. And, that is as good as it gets. Then, since you have an immortal soul, you eventually get the justice that was soooo long demanded and spend eternity separated from ANYTHING that could be remotely characterized as good. God is good.

This reality is NECESSARY. It proves that freewill is very real.

But mercy and grace are also characteristics of God, not out of debt., but out of love. God became a man and resurrected himself just as he said he would so that we could see with our own eyes that he has absolute dominion over life and death. We don't have to take his word for it. He claims that he wants to apply the judicial value of his suffering and death to me, in my stead. He wants to be my scapegoat, he says.

I live every day knowing that if fire came out of heaven and incinerated me on my driveway, I would only be getting what I deserve. Anything north of that reality is a sweet, amazing, and absolutely incredible feeling.

It is hard to describe exactly how beautiful and fully alive such a reality is. It might be somewhat compared to a person who is on death row in a maximum security prison and receives word that for some inexplicable reason, the Governor has pardoned you.

For such a person, every detail of life has new meaning..... although the meaning has been there all along. You just never noticed it.